ANNE BOGART
INTERVIEWED1
BY CLAUDIA MELE, BETH LOPES
AND MATTEO BONFITTO
Anne Bogart
(SITI Company
and Columbia University, USA)
Transcription by Isabel Tornaghi
Abstract
In
this interview, Anne Bogart presents different aspects of her work with the
SITI Company. The role of composition within the creative process is discussed
and the function of interculturalism and interdisciplinarity in the work of the company is
described. Anne Bogart talks of the close relationship that exists between her
teaching and her artistic creation, and concludes the interview situating her
work in a historical context.
Keywords
| Anne Bogart | improvisation | composition | interdisciplinarity
| interculturalism
Image 1: Anne Bogart. Photo: Michael Brosilow.
Matteo Bonfitto: At what level
composition is explored during the rehearsals of the shows directed by you?
Anne Bogart: Oh, in the beginning.
In other words, it’s the way to start. Because when you start you have some
ideas, […] you imagine what the world of the play is. I come in the beginning
of the rehearsal process with tons of research, as everyone does. And then I
speak every idea that I ever thought of, every notion, every stupid or good
idea – I basically “talk it out”. After that, the composition work is a
way for the actors, and sometimes for the designers too, to make their work for
the play, not necessarily “in order”, but to take the ideas and start to create
a world using time and space - so it’s early on, and primarily early on. It’s a
kind of source work. It’s a way of saying; here’s a
lot of intellectual ideas but how do we transform them into theatrical, poetic
ideas? So… it’s a very practical use.
MB: Ok. What kinds of materials do
you use in this compositional process?
AB: It depends on the project. For
example, I was just working on the photos from Hotel Cassiopeia
which is about the American artist Joseph Cornell. I don't
know if you know his work, he did things in little
boxes. You literally take the objects that he would work with, or props, or
pieces of text that maybe you're thinking of using… Or maybe I say: - “How do
you fall without hitting the ground? Go, figure that out in a composition.” Or:
- “What are 22 things a ladder can be used for?”. Or…
“How can you move backwards in time?”
You know, those kinds of ideas. And then [you] see what the actors come
up with as a solution to the intellectual ideas, then again becoming heartfelt
physical ideas.
Claudia Mele:
Is there any room for improvisation in your shows?
AB: We don’t like to, but when we
work with playwright Charles Mee – he is a
company member – he always wants us to do Viewpoints in [his plays]. He
always writes: - “And here is where you Viewpoint, here’s where you
improvise”. And we always say no, no, no! Because we are all control freaks, we
don't like to improvise in front of an audience and we like to have everything
[set]. But once we did it for him, in the same play I was talking about, Hotel Cassiopeia, the one about Joseph
Cornell. We had a section that was improvised. But other than that, everything
is very, very, very, very set. Because the idea is that if you set things
carefully, then you have to find the inner improvisation. So you say: -
“always at this moment, my hand is here”, but - a time can change, so
[improvisation] is always [about] what stays the same and what is different.
MB: So it’s a kind of hidden level
of improvisation?
AB: Exactly that. So interpretation
[varies] - for example: emotionality is always different; the time is always
different. But the what, the body, will be the same, although the attack
will be very different – so it's exactly that.
MB: You know the starting point and
the ending point, and then the journey can be a kind of [improvisation]…
AB: Which could be: the starting
point [is] here, and [the] ending point there. So in between here and there,
there is a lot of variations. But if an audience looks they will always say: -
“oh it’s the same play - [...] it feels different, but they are not doing
anything different; but it is different”.
MB: After reading your books and
reflecting about your shows and training, it’s possible to perceive that interculturalism permeates your work on three levels: your
company; in the process explored by you, for example the association between
Suzuki technique and Viewpoints; and through the presence of actors from
different cultures in your workshops and in the workshops led by your actors.
So, based on that, how do you see interculturalism in
your work?
AB: Well, recently I read that the
only way not get old is to constantly be confronted with things that don't make
any sense. And I'm interested in that since I'm getting older. In other words,
the human being tends towards assumptions and definitions - so being
intercultural is an act of survival as an artist. This means that every play
should have something that is not known, whether it’s a person, an idea, or a
language that has been incorporated. To me, it becomes more and more important
as a conscious choice to work interculturally. And
that can be manifested in many ways, it can mean interculturally
as in a different countries, but it can also be [as] in different kinds of
professions, so that a quantum physicist gets involved in a piece… or that the
thematic is something that you disagree with - that's a different kind of interculturalism. This becomes central to the approach, in
order not to get old, I think.
MB: Actually your work is very much
interdisciplinary as well, can you talk about that a
little bit?
AB: That too, yes. I'm interested in
the theater that exists in a moment where you say; “wait a minute - that's not
theater, that's opera”, or “that's not theater, that's dance”, or “that's not
theater that's music”, and where... It always seems to me that in the borders
where two disciplines meet is a shaky area that’s very alive. The wonderful
thing about theater is that it can be so many things,
it can be so many different kinds of relationships to the audience. So, I think
it’s always important with each project to, either [...] work with someone from
a different discipline, or work with a subject matter that is
interdisciplinary.
MB: I have read in your blog that
you're interested also in neuroscience [...]. Is it important for you, that
kind of relationship between art and science, as well?
AB: Very much so. Mainly
because I think artists and scientists are working, in some ways, on the same
issues. If you look at it historically, in say...1915, which is a big
important moment, you have simultaneously [...] the discovery of the
Uncertainty Principle, by Werner Heisenberg, [and the publication of] the
General theory of Relativity [by Einstein], but then you also have Picasso's
Cubism – suddenly the way you think about art and the experience
[changed]. Then, in theater you also have some [discoveries]… I think that one
of the reasons why Viewpoints is interesting, and why people are interested in
it, is because it actually is a reflection of a new way of creating, and a new
way of living, that is non-hierarchical much like a computer, or hyper text, is non-hierarchical. So it’s a reflection of
certain cultural changes that are happening - that the scientists are
identifying, and the artists are finding forms for those things.
MB: Very interesting.
Beth Lopes: So what's your
perception of the dissemination of your practices through SITI Company’s
international workshops?
AB: Well it's a two way street.
Because every time we work internationally we change, because we learn
something. So it's a bit selfish... in order to develop as artists we need
international relationships, and to be challenged about our own ideas. I think
every time you bring what you are used to in [your] training, for example, to
an environment where it means something different then it allows us to look [at
it] differently. I mean, I always find that when I’m in this country, I don't
know who I am because that's all there is, but if I go to Japan I can really
see what it means to be from this country. Similarly if I take my work, or
training, into a different context: [for example] two weeks ago I did work with
teenagers, and I had never done that before, and it was fantastic, and I
learned more than they did. They are like a different culture, and I was very
fed by that circumstance. So that's why the notion of international exchange is
central to our mission, what we're doing.
BL: Is there any connection between
your work as a director and your work as a professor?
AB: Absolutely. Yes. As I understand
it, say, until the end of communism, in Russia, you could have two years to
rehearse something, right? Now it’s maybe two months, but here we have three
weeks, that's it! So you can't do research inside of a rehearsal. Ideally if we
had two years to work on one production, I wouldn't need to be a professor
– meaning: I wouldn't need to put the research here and the rehearsal
there. So, because our rehearsal period is so short - […] for financial reasons
- I need equally a time to do research. The work as a professor is what allows
me to do time with the students in that kind of research. […] And I also
thought - there is a balance - which […] comes from a notion that medical
surgeons have, they say: one-third study, one-third practice, one-third
teaching. And when I heard that I thought: - Oh! That’s what I need too! I need
one third of the time to study, one third of my time to practice, one third of
my time to teach. If that gets messed up, if that ratio is too much directing
[and] not enough teaching, I'm not so healthy. To keep enough time to study,
enough time to direct [and] enough time to teach [is important] - they have to
stay in balance with each other...
MB: Can you situate your work within
contemporary theater? I know it's a very big question.
AB: When I went to graduate school I
studied what's now called performance studies, at NYU [New York University] -
then it was just called theater criticism or something [like that]. But I’ve
always been interested in the relationship between where theater comes from and
where it's going, not only historically but
anthropologically and sociologically. My work has been to think about the past
in a way that makes me understand how the forms are changing. So my mission in
life is to alter the DNA of theater, to change it somehow, to contribute to
that development. That's where a lot of our work is, which is why sometimes
you'd say that SITI Company is a company that does work for other theater
people, that it gives them encouragement. But that's ok, it's meant to be, we
think about that area where theater is going culturally...
MB: In terms of research on theater
language or experimentation, do you think that you, with your company, try to
do a research on hybridization, on hybrid languages as well?
AB: Do you mean literal, speaking,
languages?
MB: No, in terms of theatrical
codes.
AB: Yes, the answer is yes. And that´s through a relationship to anthropology, sociology and
the traditional forms in which theater is communicated and how those forms are
morphing. [I am referring to] the way perception right now is changing
because of the technology and what that means in terms of theater.
MB: Are you interested in breaking
bounds as well because, for example, this experience with Martha Graham's Company
[…] Are you interested in breaking bounds, [to] not define what is theater,
what is dance, what is […] other kinds of genres, theatrical genres?
AB: Yes!
MB: Ok, so last question: are you
aware of the resonance produced in Brazil by your approach to Viewpoints, and
would you be willing to lead a workshop in Brazil?
AB: No
and yes. [Laughter] – No, Roberta Pereira tells me, right,
that people pay attention in Brazil. I have no idea but I'd love to, yes.
MB: No, because Viewpoints […],
Suzuki also, but mainly Viewpoints has a huge resonance in Brazil.
AB: Well, it’s so great that
a lot of Brazilians come and train with us, which is fantastic, so I do know
that. I’m happy to hear that, so, thank you for the report!